The Cross Examination of Julie Hanes

After Bernard Baran was sent to prison, two of the mothers — the mother of the first accuser and one of her drug friends — sued ECDC for negligence. The case didn’t actually come to trial until 1995. The insurance company hired a private investigator to find out all he could, especially about the family of Peter Hanes, the original accuser. The investigation turned up a large number of legal and medical records documenting the Hanes family’s very troubled history. Most of the discovered information was known, or could have been easily found, by the Pittsfield Police and the District Attorney’s office. But they chose to believe the Haneses instead of a 19-year-old kid with a clean legal history who happened to be gay.

At trial, Richard Brody, cross-examined Julie Hanes (then Julie Hanes Jones) and based his cross-examination on the records the investigation had unearthed. Notice the lack of objection to Mr. Brody’s questions by Mr. DiSanti, Julie Hanes’s lawyer.

4/5/1995

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY RICHARD BRODY

RICHARD BRODY: Now, Mrs. Hanes, that’s the date of your son’s birth; is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And that’s Peter’s birth. What did you say was the date of George’s birth?

JULIE HANES JONES: 5/12/83.

RICHARD BRODY: And when were you married to Mr. Jim Hanes?

JULIE HANES JONES: In May of 1979.

RICHARD BRODY: Would that be May 31st of 1980?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I’m sorry.

RICHARD BRODY: And is it fair to say that Mr. Jim Hanes left the home by December 1980?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s fair to say.

RICHARD BRODY: And is it also fair to say that David Hanes moved in with you by January of 1981?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, it wasn’t that soon.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, didn’t he move into 21 Faulkner Place in January of 1981?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t believe — I’m a little confused as to “move in.” We knew each other for years. He would come by the house, yes. Move in with all his belongings, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, did he start staying at your house in January of 1981 with you and your son?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And he stayed with you, did he not, until December — strike that — October of 1984.

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he did.

RICHARD BRODY: And, in fact, it was within a week of going to the police that he left the house; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: I would say more like two.

RICHARD BRODY: And at some point I think you told us that David Hanes stabbed himself and was in the hospital? Is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was when?

JULIE HANES JONES: March 29, 1983.

RICHARD BRODY: And as a result of stabbing himself, he needed open heart surgery and was in the hospital; is that correct.

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And after he left the hospital, he went into detox for quite some time, didn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: He went to the Boston VA Hospital in Jamaica Plains.

RICHARD BRODY: And it wasn’t until the summer of 1980 — was it 1983 or 1984 that he came back?

JULIE HANES JONES: ‘83.

RICHARD BRODY: Summer of 1983?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: During the time he was gone, his good friend John Wilson started to assist you, did he not?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he did not.

RICHARD BRODY: Weren’t you seeing John Wilson while David Hanes was still living in your house?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I was not.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. And at some point John Wilson moved into your home, did he not?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was in December of 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he didn’t move in till ‘85.

RICHARD BRODY: Not January of ‘85?

JULIE HANES JONES: I can’t pinpoint a month, no. As far as moving in, I’m a little –

RICHARD BRODY: Let me explain and then you tell me. What I mean moving in, he started to live with you in your house in January of 1985?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: What’s your best estimate of when he started living with you — living in your house in 1985?

JULIE HANES JONES: He wasn’t living in my house. He had a place of his own in Lenox.

RICHARD BRODY: He would stay over at times?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you continued to see John until 1987?

JULIE HANES JONES: I continue to see John to this day. We grew up together.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, you continued to see John romantically until 1987?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t really remember.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember when John Wilson stabbed himself in the chest?

MR. DiSANTI: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Basis?

MR. DiSANTI: There’s no foundation for that. I mean, that’s not a good faith question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

RICHARD BRODY: Oh, please.

THE COURT: Please, no comments. Overruled. Go ahead.

RICHARD BRODY: When did John Wilson stab himself in the chest?

JULIE HANES JONES: January 7th.

RICHARD BRODY: Of what year?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall, to be honest with you.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: When did you — when did John Wilson take a pickax and destroy all the windows in your car?

JULIE HANES JONES: December of 1987.

RICHARD BRODY: It was Christmas, wasn’t it?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, it was.

RICHARD BRODY: Christmas of ‘87. And then he stabbed himself the next month?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: And you got a TRO against John Wilson, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: He threatened you with a gun?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he did.

RICHARD BRODY: At your home?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he did.

RICHARD BRODY: Was Peter present?

JULIE HANES JONES: He was present in the house, yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: In fact, didn’t you tell your therapist that when David stabbed himself in the heart, he stabbed himself with a pair of scissors?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I did not.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. One moment, please, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling your therapist that your son Peter Hanes saw David Hanes stab himself in the heart with the scissors?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you tell them that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember or you didn’t say it?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t remember saying that.

RICHARD BRODY: But you don’t dispute that you may have said it, you just don’t remember?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I dispute even saying it.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. Now, I think you told us earlier today about how David Hanes grabbed your arm and mad you ingest various — something that was in a syringe; is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And is it your testimony that ever since he did that, you have been addicted to various drugs?

JULIE HANES JONES: It was not –

RICHARD BRODY: Is it your testimony that you’ve been addicted to various drugs ever since he did that to you, yes or no?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: In fact, you were involved with David in various drug activities in the Pittsfield area from 1980 until 1984; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: David, in fact, was an informant for the Pittsfield Police drug enforcement organization; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That is correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And, in fact, when this first happened, David called his handler over at the drug unit that maybe your son had been sexually abused; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t know anything about that.

RICHARD BRODY: You were also an informant for the drug abuse people over in the Pittsfield Police Department, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: NO, I was not. I did a tape.

RICHARD BRODY: You did a tape with David on how drug abusers act in the community?

JULIE HANES JONES: For the DARE kids, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: No, no, not for the DARE kids, for the Pittsfield Police Department training on how to deal with drug abuse. Didn’t you do a tape for that?

JULIE HANES JONES: For children, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: No, for police?

JULIE HANES JONES: Okay, for the police –

RICHARD BRODY: Yes or no, ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, I think you told us — I just want to make sure I’m clear on this — that you initially put Peter into ECDC because you had to take care of your younger son, George, at home and you wanted more time with him?

JULIE HANES JONES: Excuse me, I didn’t catch the second half of it.

RICHARD BRODY: One moment, please, Your Honor.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: You told us this morning, did you not, that in 1982 you were taking care of George at the time when you put Peter into ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: In 1982, no. George wasn’t born until 1983.

RICHARD BRODY: I understand that, but isn’t that what you told us this morning?

JULIE HANES JONES: Probably, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Right. In fact, George wasn’t born until long after Peter had been going to ECDC for a number of months; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: So you were at home and Peter was going full time to ECDC, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Mm-hmm, that’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: Is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And when you were going to ECDC, did he have any problems when you first sent him to ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You didn’t — he wasn’t a handful at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he was not.

RICHARD BRODY: Did he get — have temper tantrums prior to his going to ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: All two-year-olds have temper tantrums.

RICHARD BRODY: Did he have temper tantrums?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And the way that you dealt with his temper tantrums was to have him sit in a chair; is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Time out, that’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And the way that you would calm him down would be to rub his back?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, I think you told us that at some point you needed a time out, so during 1981 or ‘82 you had some foster care for the children on one time, a respite weekend I think it was called?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: And did you apply for that or did someone in a governmental agency suggest it to you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I applied for it.

RICHARD BRODY: One moment, please, Your Honor.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: When you would reassure Peter before you brought him to ECDC, you would pat his back?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not during a temper tantrum, no.

RICHARD BRODY: That’s how you would reassure and comfort him?

JULIE HANES JONES: When Peter was feeling bad.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, listen to my question. I’ll try and –

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t understand the question.

RICHARD BRODY: When you wanted to reassure or comfort your son Peter in the days prior to ever going to ECDC, you would do that by holding him and patting his back, wouldn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And when he would yell and scream, you would put him in a time out chair; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, in January of 1981 through March of ‘81, do you remember being involved in a drug bust?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: And Peter was approximately three months old, four months old?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And was it at that time for the first time a governmental agency became involved with you and your family?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, shortly thereafter you went into a drug rehab program, did you not?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the Jones program?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s psychiatric.

RICHARD BRODY: The Jones program was a drug rehab/psychiatric program that you went into in April of 1981, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And while you were in the — that’s an inpatient facility?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, it is.

RICHARD BRODY: You had to stay there for a number of weeks?

JULIE HANES JONES: I stayed a couple of days.

RICHARD BRODY: The first time you stayed a couple days?

JULIE HANES JONES: The first time I stayed longer than a couple days.

RICHARD BRODY: The first time you stayed a couple weeks, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall it being a couple of weeks but –

RICHARD BRODY: In any event, during the time that you were inpatient at the drug rehab/psychiatric place, who was taking care of Peter?

JULIE HANES JONES: My mother.

RICHARD BRODY: Where was James?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m sorry, but you have me very confused. James left the home in 1980.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m sorry, I’m talking about David. David, where was David when you were inpatient at Jones in April of 1981?

JULIE HANES JONES: David was home.

RICHARD BRODY: He was not taking care of the child?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeas, between the two of them, yes, they were.

RICHARD BRODY: I see. Now, you were a frequent visitor of the emergency room during 1981 and 1982 for drug overdoses, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I was.

RICHARD BRODY: and in terms of the types of drugs that you were taking, it was not limited to cocaine, was it?

JULIE HANES JONES: By then, no.

RICHARD BRODY: What were some of the other drugs that you were doing?

JULIE HANES JONES: Morphine, Dilaudids, Nembutals, Seconals.

RICHARD BRODY: Anything else? Percodans, do you remember the Percodans?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Nembutal?

JULIE HANES JONES: Tylox.

RICHARD BRODY: Various barbiturates?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember going in — strike that. During April of ‘82 I guess, which was about a year after you were at Jones, you were living with a whole group of people weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t understand that. A whole — what do you mean a whole group?

RICHARD BRODY: You were living with seven people?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you started to feel at loose ends?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: In April of ‘82?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m sorry, you’re going to have to repeat it because I’m not following.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember going in to seek some additional counseling because you were very upset because David Hanes was beating you up and it was very hard to handle your son Peter and you were doing cocaine or Percodan four days out of seven? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember the drug statement, but it was probably the case.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember telling your therapist at that time, who was Dennis Pollack, Anna Pollock’s son, that –

JULIE HANES JONES: Excuse me, I never saw Dennis Pollock.

RICHARD BRODY: Are you sure of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m pretty positive. I needed a female to work with, not a male.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m talking when you went for emergency help in July of –

JULIE HANES JONES: At Berkshire Medical Center?

RICHARD BRODY: Exactly.

JULIE HANES JONES: Okay, yes. It could have been Dennis.

RICHARD BRODY: You told him, did you not, that you refused to be hospitalized at that point because there was no one to take care of your son and you would miss out on cocaine that night at home? Do you remember telling him that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I do not.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling him that it’s hard to handle your son when you don’t know where your mind is at?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, is it that you don’t remember saying that or you never said it?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember saying that.

RICHARD BRODY: But it’s possible you said it?

JULIE HANES JONES: It’s possible.

RICHARD BRODY: Sure. And that’s because during 1980 through 1984 you had a very hard time concentrating on what was real and what was not real; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, that’s not correct.

RICHARD BRODY: many times you were high on drugs?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: You overdosed on a number of occasions?

JULIE HANES JONES: One occasion.

RICHARD BRODY: When was the occasion that you remember overdosing?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m not sure of the year, but 1982.

RICHARD BRODY: And which hospital did you go to on that overdose?

JULIE HANES JONES: Berkshire Medical Center.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember what you overdosed on at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t recall.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the time you overdosed on the Prolixin and Compazine? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: If that’s what it was –

RICHARD BRODY: No, I’m asking you if you remember.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the time you overdosed on the Triavil?

JULIE HANES JONES: Excuse me.

RICHARD BRODY: Triavil?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’ve never even heard of Triavil.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, when you went to see Dennis, when you spoke to Dennis Pollock at the emergency crisis center clinic, that was in July — strike that — July of 1982?

JULIE HANES JONES: I would say.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was, oh — strike that. Do you remember when Peter first went to ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: In ‘82.

RICHARD BRODY: December of ‘82?

RICHARD BRODY: Approach the board, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

RICHARD BRODY: And when you went to that clinic in July of ‘82, you were referred there by someone from Children’s Protective Services, weren’t you, Valerie Gill?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you had already been a subsequent time inpatient at Jones rehab after the first time we discussed, hadn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And at that time you told Mr. Pollock, didn’t you, that you have problems with your family, your boyfriend, money, and your son? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Well, I don’t remember the conversation but –

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember saying that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember saying that you and your son, your brother, and your boyfriend all lived together, and both your brother and your boyfriend feel — we’ll leave that out — can’t live with you? Do you remember telling him that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember telling him that your boyfriend is crazy and he beats you up and that you spent all your money on cocaine and are way into debt?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember saying it’s hard to handle her son when she doesn’t know where her mind is?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling Mr. Pollock at this time that since April of 1981 you have been depressed?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that you had been refused admission to a detox center twice?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was refused admission?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes, yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: And then you went to Berkshire Council on Alcoholism twice; do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yup, I remember going there.

RICHARD BRODY: And at that time you were worried about the possibility of hepatitis, is that — do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that you said that you had some serious concerns about whether or not you would be involved in some suicidal thoughts? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t — no.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you not remember or –

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember saying, quote, I want to get it over with for the last month, end quote?

JULIE HANES JONES: No,

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember saying you think about using a rope which you do not have to hang yourself in your apartment or cutting your wrists when alone or doing a big shot of cocaine but you don’t want to die? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I remember a conversation I had with a doctor.

RICHARD BRODY: No, I’m asking you if you remember saying this to your therapist.

JULIE HANES JONES: No, no, then the answer is no.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. Do you remember that you hadn’t eaten in three days, you had lost 15 pounds, and that you had been sleeping 14 hours a day? Do you remember telling him that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Was it true?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Was that true at this time in your life? Were you sleeping 14 hours a day?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the doctor at that point telling you that he thought it would be advisable to place you into the hospital for a while and you refused?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember him speaking to you about any diagnoses he made about you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t even know what doctor we’re referring to.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m talking about Mr. Pollock.

JULIE HANES JONES: Okay, all right. I didn’t realize he was a doctor.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the — he is a Master of Social Work. Do you remember the diagnosis he made of you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. Do you remember that on August 2nd, 1982, you checked out of Jones II after being out of there two days? This is the second Jones II admission?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you went and somehow obtained a prescription for Compazine and overdosed on it?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that two days later you had to go to the emergency room because of the amount of cocaine that you had taken the night before?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, you were taking care of Peter at this time at home; is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And there was some problem — strike that. You were taking care of his personal hygiene, were you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I was.

RICHARD BRODY: And did you have some problems that needed some medical care to Peter during this period of time?

JULIE HANES JONES: In regards to?

RICHARD BRODY: In regards to his personal hygiene.

JULIE HANES JONES: No. Oh, at one point he was exposed to scabies.

RICHARD BRODY: And mites?

JULIE HANES JONES: No mites.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember the mites? You took him to Dr. Sheeley for that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, that was for scabies.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. Now, you told the people at ECDC when you went in for your interview that when Peter got frustrated he would yell and scream, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I probably said that.

RICHARD BRODY: And, by the way, David Hanes’s brother is named what? What’s his brother’s name?

JULIE HANES JONES: He has two brothers.

RICHARD BRODY: What are their names?

RICHARD BRODY: George and Doug.

RICHARD BRODY: George and Doug. And what’s his mother’s name?

JULIE HANES JONES: Patricia.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, when you went to ECDC, you had an interview with the folks there, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And they asked you a lot of questions about your son?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And they wanted to get a proper placement for him, didn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you wanted to have a proper placement for him, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right.

RICHARD BRODY: Looked like a professional place?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, it did.

RICHARD BRODY: People appeared to be well trained?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: People wore clean clothes, the kids wore clean clothes?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: They appeared to be happy?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And I think it’s your testimony that initially Peter was happy?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember in January of ‘83 — now this is just about the time that Peter was going to ECDC, right? He started in December of ‘82 I think you said?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: So in January of ‘83 do you remember telling anybody that Peter was giving you a hard time at home, he can be very active and he is also very active at school? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember saying that but –

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the people at ECDC telling you — you had a conversation with them about the fact that he was giving you a hard time and he was very active, and they told you it was normal toddler behavior but they would keep in touch with you regarding Peter’s progress? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I remember conversations that we had most certainly, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m asking you if you remember a conversation within a month of the time that Peter went to ECDC in which you said he was giving you a hard time at home, he was very active?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You knew, did you not, that if you had concerns about Peter, you could call the people at ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And, in fact, they encouraged you to do that, didn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, they did not.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t they encourage you as a parent to get involved in the care and education of your child?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: There were lots of open houses, weren’t there?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: There were lots of displays that they put on; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Programs?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: In 1983 do you remember seeking some psychiatric care regarding your drug problem from a Dr. Christopher?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: How long did you go to see Dr. Christopher?

JULIE HANES JONES: I can’t give you a date.

RICHARD BRODY: Can you give me your best estimate of the year?

JULIE HANES JONES: 1982.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, at some point in 1983 do you remember that Peter had been taken from the home and placed in foster care and then he went back again?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: How long was he gone for?

JULIE HANES JONES: The weekend.

RICHARD BRODY: And this was within two months of his going to ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recollect it being that short, but it could have been.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, during this time you were taking care of Peter and bringing him in for checkups to his doctor and pediatrician, Dr. Sheeley; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And around April of 1983 Peter had now been at ECDC for about five months?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: And you were five to six months pregnant with George?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: You were still doing a lot of drugs?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: were you concerned that the drugs that you were doing would somehow have an effect upon the baby you were carrying?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you seek any psychological help about that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: With whom?

JULIE HANES JONES: My gynecologist, Dr. Frederick Levinson.

RICHARD BRODY: What did you say to him?

JULIE HANES JONES: I told him that I was a drug addict and I wanted to stop using drugs.

RICHARD BRODY: What did he say to you?

JULIE HANES JONES: What did he say to me? That I needed to change my whole life.

RICHARD BRODY: But you continued to do drugs, did you not?

JULIE HANES JONES: Until I was — yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And it was right around that time that David Hanes stabbed himself in the heart. That would be right around the time you were pregnant with George –

JULIE HANES JONES: Three months later.

RICHARD BRODY: You were still — George was still not yet born when he stabbed himself in the heart?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was seven months pregnant.

RICHARD BRODY: And was it — did you notice any change in Peter’s behavior when — strike that. He thought David was his father, did he not, at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: At that time, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And did you notice any change in his behavior when he found out that his father was in the hospital with a major problem? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: We told Peter that he fell down the stairs and ended up on scissors.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m sorry, who told Peter?

JULIE HANES JONES: David and I told Peter that he fell down the stairs and got injured with the scissors.

RICHARD BRODY: When did you tell him that?

JULIE HANES JONES: When he wanted to know where Dave was.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, David was in the hospital for a few months wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: He was in there that night, and my mother had to take Peter the night he stabbed himself.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, follow my question. You just told us that you and David told Peter that he had fallen down the stairs and stabbed himself with the scissors. Didn’t you just tell us that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Mm-hmm.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, David certainly couldn’t have told that to Peter because he was in the hospital; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right.

RICHARD BRODY: So what I’m asking you is when David didn’t show up at the house for the next couple months and Peter wanted to know where he was, what did you tell him?

JULIE HANES JONES: First David did show up at the house. He was given a release pass from the hospital to come home.

RICHARD BRODY: After the open heart surgery?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: We’re talking about a while before he could do that; isn’t that right? I mean, it wasn’t day surgery, was it?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, certainly not.

RICHARD BRODY: He had to be in there for a couple — for a little while?

JULIE HANES JONES: He was in there, yes, for a while.

RICHARD BRODY: And then when he came out — I’m not interested in when he came out. While he was gone, what did you tell Peter about where his father was?

JULIE HANES JONES: In the hospital.

RICHARD BRODY: Did that make him upset?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not really.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you take him to see his father in the hospital?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: Did that upset him?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t upset him, okay. Then you had your second son; is that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And that upset Peter, didn’t it?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t you tell a number of your therapists that Peter was very upset when the second baby came along?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: The second baby was very colicky, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: And that upset you a great deal, did it not?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you felt very cooped up in that house with a colicky baby, didn’t you? Didn’t you tell your therapist that?

JULIE HANES JONES: probably.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember telling him that Peter was driving you crazy? You had the colicky baby, you had this guy who was in the hospital after he stabbed himself, and you had Peter driving you nuts, do you remember telling him that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I probably did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you were strung out on top of that, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling the people at ECDC in April of 1983 that Peter has been having a difficult time lately, he is aggressive, active, and defiant, he’s had a bad experience over the past week, i.e. David stabbed himself in the heart, you’re not in good health, you’re due any time, and you think that Peter might be reacting to some of this? Do you remember saying that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY:

RICHARD BRODY: Do you think that maybe Peter would be reacting to some of those things that were going on in his life at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: Stress with the baby maybe but –

RICHARD BRODY: But not the fact that his father didn’t come home for a couple months?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, absolutely not.

RICHARD BRODY: By the way, he really looked up to David, didn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he did.

RICHARD BRODY: And when David left he was very upset, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Extremely.

RICHARD BRODY: But then when you — when John Wilson moved in, do you remember he called him Daddy John?

JULIE HANES JONES: He never called him Daddy John.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, do you remember being told in 1983, I guess May of 1983, that Peter was completely ignoring his teachers whenever they asked him to do something?

JULIE HANES JONES: This is in May of –

RICHARD BRODY: In 1983.

JULIE HANES JONES: In 1983?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: Vaguely.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, do you remember who Peter’s first teachers at ECDC were?

JULIE HANES JONES: I want to say Stephanie, Eileen, and then at some point Bernie.

RICHARD BRODY: Would it refresh your memory if I were to tell you it was Carol Bixby, Linda Scales, Kathy Farrell, and Anna Brindle?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, okay, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And those people saw Peter when he first came into ECDC, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And they did some reports for you that you read, did they not?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember them telling you that he exhibits a wide range of behavior swings daily with no particular set pattern? Do you remember them telling you that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember the wide mood swings?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not in the beginning, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember them telling you that Peter uses a negative approach to get attention from his teachers?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember going to the Berkshire Medical — mental Health Center and seeing a therapist named Joie Janssen in July 11th of 1983? Do you remember Josie Janssen?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: I think it’s the same woman who you alter saw jointly with David. Does that help you remember?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling Josie Janssen that David Hanes stabbed himself three months before, had open heart surgery, you have a nine-week-old baby with the colic, and you’re anxious, nervous, and upset?

JULIE HANES JONES: I probably said that.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you think that — strike that. And I think it’s your testimony that Peter never called John Wilson his father?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he did not.

RICHARD BRODY: You were present when your son was deposed, were you not?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I was.

RICHARD BRODY: You heard what he said?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: You watched as he testified, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: I’m sorry?

RICHARD BRODY: May I approach the witness?

THE COURT: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Page 12.

See if I read this correctly, ma’am.

“Do you remember John?”

Answer: “Yeah.”

Question: “John was he your father for a while?”

Answer: “Yes.”

Have I read that correctly?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember when he said that at his deposition when you were sitting there watching?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that, okay, So he did at least once call John his father, at least at the deposition?

JULIE HANES JONES: Obviously at the deposition.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, do you remember after you spoke to Josie Janssen on July 11th, you went back and tried to get David into couples counseling with her and you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, that’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was because of all the tension that you felt at home; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Mostly the drugs.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember saying that as a result of the tension mounting in your home because of Dave’s suicide attempt three months ago and which you attribute to a nine-week-old baby’s colic, you came to see her? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember that, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember feeling depressed and isolated?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m sure I was depressed.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling her that the Mass. Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had become involved due to their concern about the baby? Do you remember telling her that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Was that true?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not to my knowledge. They had already been involved.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling her that you were going crazy being cooped up all day?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall saying it, but I could have.

RICHARD BRODY: You told her you were taking Valium in order to cope with your children; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember that.

RICHARD BRODY: Were you taking Valium in order to cope with your children?

JULIE HANES JONES: You’re talking what year?

RICHARD BRODY: July of ‘83.

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, on July 22nd of 1983 both Peter and George were again placed in foster care, weren’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m sorry, repeat the question.

RICHARD BRODY: July 22nd or 1983, do you remember Peter and George were again in foster care?

JULIE HANES JONES: Vaguely.

RICHARD BRODY: By the way, you never went back for couples therapy after that first time you got David to go with you; is that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: He never came back, did he?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, in September of 1983 — which was Peter’s new year at ECDC; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: — you were concerned about his behavior because he was disrupting your — strike that — because the disruption in your home was causing Peter anxiety? Isn’t that what you told the folks there?

JULIE HANES JONES: At ECDC?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Who did you tell that to?

JULIE HANES JONES: I didn’t tell that to anyone that I recall.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember making that statement?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

THE COURT: Mr. Brody, let’s take a brief mid-afternoon recess, 5 minutes.

(Recess taken)

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Brody.

RICHARD BRODY: Miss Jones, in December of 1983, Peter was taken out of your home again and placed in foster care with the Johnsons, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: In December?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes, right before Christmas.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember you had what you’ve termed a nervous breakdown?

JULIE HANES JONES: ‘93, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember he was placed in foster care and he had been there only four days when Mrs. Johnson’s dog bit him in the face? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was right around Christmas of 1983, wasn’t it?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And then he was brought — that was a voluntary relinq — you voluntarily gave Peter to foster care at that time, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And then he came back to the house again. And in January of 1984 the people from ECDC called you in for a conference, didn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes they did.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was January 18th of 1984 when they told you, did they not — strike that. You met with the educational coordinator?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: You met with the social services assistant?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you met with the social worker?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you met with all of his teachers, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And they told you that they were concerned about Peter, didn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, they did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you told them that you were also concerned about some apparent changes in behavior at home, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You didn’t tell them that. Do you remember telling them that Peter seemed irritable and aggressive?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember them telling you that probably the best thing to do would be for them to send you frequent notes about Peter’s activities each day and that you should keep in touch with the teacher if you had any concerns and to check with his progress? Do you remember that discussion?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember, oh, it was less than a month later when Stephanie Adornetto, who was now his teacher, called you up because of a concern that Peter was having a difficult time? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not the specific conversation, no, but –

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember calling back and saying, Well, the reason Peter has been so problematic is because his younger brother is in the hospital and she — you have been having a very difficult time with Peter at home? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember having a tough time with Peter at home in February of ‘84 because Peter was worried that George wouldn’t come back from the hospital?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t — that’s — no.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, you received a progress report from ECDC in March of 1984, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And Peter was three years four months old, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: And both Stephanie Adornetto and Eileen Ferry gave you — wrote some things down in his progress report?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told that Peter often requires attention from his teacher, he tends to push other children out of his play area, has difficulty sharing, uses inappropriate language, swears, calls names, he has wide mood swings, one moment he is upset and aggressive for no reason, and they are very concerned? Do you remember them telling you that in a written report?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes. Bernie Baran was also under that report.

RICHARD BRODY: And he told you the same thing, didn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Bernie Baran?

RICHARD BRODY: Yeah. That’s in the report?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he did.

RICHARD BRODY: They told you that Peter was unable to sit through lunch without being attended to on a one-to-one basis? Isn’t that what they told you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: He needs a teacher at his table just for himself to monitor his behavior because he was disruptive and at times would act out towards other children?

JULIE HANES JONES: Mm-hmm.

RICHARD BRODY: This is, by the way, in March of 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: March of 1984. Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember them telling you that Peter threw a tray during a temper tantrum, hit himself with a tray?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall that.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember them sending home a note to that effect?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Is that you don’t remember or you don’t think they did it?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: You were still doing drugs at that time, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I was.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, at one point in March Peter was bitten by another child and you were immediately notified, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: It was at the end of the day, yeah. They sent home an accident report.

RICHARD BRODY: Every time your son had an accident by either falling, by being hit, or even by hitting someone else, they would send home a report, wouldn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: They would send home a report, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: They wanted to keep you informed as to what was going on with your child, didn’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, they did.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember in April of 1984 you were told that Peter’s social emotional development has recently been of concern, more and more often he has difficult days, at least four days a week, he is aggressive, disruptive, tends to throw objects within reach, he is unable to share and play with others, he has difficulty settling down, he is unwilling to sit in a time-out chair when asked, he needs more time out of the room away from children and requires one on one supervision constantly? Do you remember them telling you that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Telling me that?

RICHARD BRODY: Writing it to you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: When you got that report, did you go in to ECDC and say, Well, geez, can we do something about this, is there some way we can deal with the problems that Peter is showing?

JULIE HANES JONES: I had gone in prior to that.

RICHARD BRODY: When you received –

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: — that report did you come in?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You didn’t. Do you remember receiving a report that Peter was walking up the stairs at ECDC, slipped, fell, scraped his back, and you were, again, immediately notified, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember on April 30th of 1984 being told that Peter went into the bathroom in front of another child, went to the other child, bit him on the back, and when he was placed in a chair he screamed and tried to trip everybody who walked by him? Do you remember being told that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told that he could not tolerate frustration and he was extremely aggressive?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember being told in may of 1984 — it’s the next month now — that he was throwing rocks on the playground at other children?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told that Peter fought and kicked other children and had to be taken for time-out several times?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told that Peter pulled other children’s hair, kicked them, used extremely bad language towards other children, teachers, and parents of other children, he wouldn’t sit in the time-out chairs, had to be held, and stepped on and broke toys? Do you remember being told that in May of 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not all of that, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Most of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Most of that.

RICHARD BRODY: And at that time when you received that information, did you got to ECDC and say, Let’s see what we can do about Peter here; this seems to be getting out of hand? Did you say that?

JULIE HANES JONES: We communicated.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you say that?

JULIE HANES JONES: On that day, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you say that at all in May of 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told that Peter took a head band from another child on May 10th, broke it into three pieces, ran into the bathroom, flushed it down the toilet, slapped the teacher, and had to sit down, screamed until it was time for breakfast, and then threw salt all around the kitchen, hitting another child in the head with a broom, screamed, swore, hit the teacher when he was told to sit in the time-out chair, began to hit the teacher when he was told to get ready for lunch, blanket was taken away because he was using it to hit other children, freaked out at lunch, started throwing food and milk all around the room, refused to take a nap, began to swear in the afternoon, woke up from his nap, began slapping children, picked up a cup, threw it at another child and had to sit out, later screamed and swore around the room, threw toys all over the classroom and threw chairs around the classroom? Do you remember being told that in May of 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: In May?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Is it that you don’t remember or it wasn’t told to you?

JULIE HANES JONES: It was not told to me.

RICHARD BRODY: Are you sure of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m pretty sure. It was pretty heavy things you’re telling me.

RICHARD BRODY: You were still on drugs at this time?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was on drugs until February of ‘83.

RICHARD BRODY: Actually, you were on drugs until November of 1984, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Isn’t that what you told us this morning?

JULIE HANES JONES: I injected drugs from December of 1980 until February of 1983.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you make a differentiation between injecting drugs and ingesting drugs?

JULIE HANES JONES: Being a junkie, yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: And when you ingest drugs, you usually ingest barbiturates, don’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not necessarily, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, is that how you take barbiturates, you usually ingest them? You do not shoot them, do you?

JULIE HANES JONES: You can shoot anything.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m talking about you.

JULIE HANES JONES: Me? I have shotten barbiturates, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: But your ordinary way to take barbiturates is to take them orally, isn’t it?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not all the time, no.

RICHARD BRODY: What’s your usual way of taking barbiturates?

JULIE HANES JONES: In December of 1980 it was shooting them, right up until February of 1983.

RICHARD BRODY: We’re talking about May of 1984, aren’t we, ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: In May of 1984, no.

RICHARD BRODY: No what?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was not injecting drugs.

RICHARD BRODY: I didn’t ask you that. I asked you if you were ingesting them.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Are you sure of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Actually, no, I’m not quite sure.

RICHARD BRODY: No, actually, you had quite a bit of drugs after May of 1984, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, not quite a bit.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being contacted on May 14th, 1984, to discuss Peter’s behavior, contacted by ECDC after all of these things that we just discussed happened? Do you remember being contacted by them to talk about what was going on in his life?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: And on May 15th, 1984, you actually brought Peter into ECDC, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you wanted to watch him play, right?

JULIE HANES JONES: Mm-hmm.

RICHARD BRODY: And you remember when you did that, Peter climbed up on the shelves and had to be taken down, he began to scream, had a temper tantrum, and was completely disruptive during group play? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that he swore, refused to listen, sat in the hallway, continued to kick and scream, taken upstairs to social services? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I do not.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that he had to sit in the social service office for over an hour before he calmed down?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Social service, by the way, was up on the third floor where all the offices were?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember being up there, no.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t remember that. By the way, when you get up to the third floor at ECDC and you come up the steps, right in front of you is a receptionist; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: There’s a room.

RICHARD BRODY: There’s a receptionist desk in the hall, isn’t there?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Are you sure of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m sure of that.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. And that’s where the executive director’s office is and that’s where the social services office is and that’s where the nurse’s office is and that’s where the teachers’ lounge is; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, that’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember that in May of 1984 the Department of Social Services had to reassess your ability to take care of Peter?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall it, but that’s possible.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember them telling you that they thought it was important for you to continue the day care experience because the home environment was extremely unstable? Do you remember them telling you that?

JULIE HANES JONES: They probably did.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you agree with that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember on May 16th, 1984, Peter was taken out of the classroom for inappropriate behavior and later in the day while outside he defecated in the children’s play patch? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was not aware of that.

RICHARD BRODY: You weren’t told that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the same day he pushed another child off a chair, swore and hit a teacher, refused to go to the bathroom, tried to move the fish in the fishbowl by sticking his fingers in the bowl? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, in may of 1984, do you remember Peter saw David for the first time in quite a while, the first time in 12 months, May 20, 1984? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Vaguely.

RICHARD BRODY: And when he saw David, he actually had a good day, didn’t he? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I would imagine.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, right around June it was you told us that you wanted to have Peter taken out of Stephanie and Eileen and Bernie’s room and placed into another room; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right.

RICHARD BRODY: Well, actually, weren’t you told that unless they tried something new with Peter, they were going to kick him out of day care?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: They didn’t tell you that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, they did not.

RICHARD BRODY: And they didn’t tell you that if it didn’t work out in this new classroom, he was out of there?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, they did not.

RICHARD BRODY: Never told you that? Approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember receiving a letter on June 12th, 1984, which said, “Dear Mrs. Hanes: Peter will be moving on a trial basis to room 4 for two weeks” –

MR. DiSANTI: Objection, Your Honor. It’s hearsay.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m asking her if she remembers it.

THE COURT: Overruled.

RICHARD BRODY: “He will have a 1-hour visit on Monday, June 11th, another visit on Tuesday, and will begin a full day on Wednesday, June 13th.

“We are going to require two things of you, Julie. First, that you have daily contact with either me, Lynn Whitter, Carol, or his teacher, Mrs. Coulter. You must call every day to find out how he is doing. Secondly, you must be available by telephone during the hours that he is here and be available to come and pick him up if he is having a very bad day. We will also be asking Sue Geary to contact us daily.”
Sue Geary was from the Office of Children?

JULIE HANES JONES: DSS. Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: “If at the end of the two-week period Peter has not improved, we will have to ask that he leave ECDC. The two-week period will begin June 11th and end June 22nd. Sincerely, Lynn Whitter, Social Services.”

Do you remember getting that letter, ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I do not, but I’m sure I must have.

RICHARD BRODY: And right around then, in June, his behavior got to be a little bit better when he went to this new place, didn’t it?

JULIE HANES JONES: To the new classroom

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: For a brief –

RICHARD BRODY: Brief period of time, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And it was the same period of time that the man he thought his father, David Hanes, came back to live with you; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t he move back in with you in June of 1984, ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, yes, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And he was happy because dad was back in the house, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: And then dad started to abuse you again, didn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Don’t you remember him beating you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember calling the police?

JULIE HANES JONES: I remember calling the police, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was because he was beating you; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he wasn’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Isn’t that what you told them?

JULIE HANES JONES: No. I told them he was using drugs then.

RICHARD BRODY: So now Peter is in a new classroom, dad is back home, and Peter is starting to feel better; is that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he is.

RICHARD BRODY: And then he starts to feel worse again, doesn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he does.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember being told by ECDC in June right before they made the switch that Peter’s social emotional development has been of concern to them more and more, he has more and more difficult days, he’s aggressive, disruptive, throws objects, he is unable to share and play with others, he is difficult to settle down? Do you remember them telling you that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Prior to moving to room 4?

RICHARD BRODY: That’s correct.

JULIE HANES JONES: No, but I would assume that they had those concerns.

RICHARD BRODY: Isn’t that why they wanted to — they were going to kick him out of school, they were going to kick a four-year-old kid out of –

JULIE HANES JONES: No, they did a rotation.

RICHARD BRODY: Excuse me, ma’am. They were going to kick your four-year-old son out of preschool because of his behavior, weren’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: I guess, yes, they were.

RICHARD BRODY: And they were giving him one last chance; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And then when he went into his new classroom, do you remember his behavior got worse when he started to swear again, he started to smash his toys? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I remember that.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember — by the way, did you call every day like they asked you to?

JULIE HANES JONES: To be honest with you, I don’t know.

RICHARD BRODY: Now during the month of June, one of the — May I approach the Side Bar, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Side Bar?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

THE COURT: Yes.

(At Side Bar)

RICHARD BRODY: Your Honor, before I go into this, we — this was a matter of some discussion yesterday, and I just want to make sure I’m not going to get into trouble here.

During the month of June the new teacher noticed a mark on the boy. She was wrong in terms of — she said that it looked like there was something wrong with him. She reported it because she has a duty to report it. She then got very angry because it was a neglectful — I won’t go into the neglectful, but I just want to get into the fact that she saw something wrong because she reported it because there was a duty.

THE COURT: The mother?

RICHARD BRODY: Pat Coulter, the teacher. She saw something wrong with the child and she reported it because she felt she had a duty to report it, because I think that goes to show the kind of person, the kind of people that were working there and the manner in which they looked at their job. They felt they had a duty to these children. Now, she may have been wrong, but it goes to show how they viewed their children and the kind of concern they had.

THE COURT: I think you’ve been going over quite a bit of material in that general area with regard to the contacts, et cetera, and the meetings. Unless you can show me some other reason why that might be admissible, I’m going to exclude it at this point because I think it treads a little too much on issues that really are not material here.

RICHARD BRODY: I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

MR. DiSANTI: Your Honor, I was under the impression that these records were going to be used to impeach the credibility of –

THE COURT: That’s right. I mean, if anything, to impeach, not to substantively prove that the school was diligent in looking into what it was going to look into. But at any rate, I’m going to exclude that on that basis through this witness.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay.

(In Open Court)

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, in June of 1984, you were very concerned about your son, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: You were concerned about his behavior, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: He was acting out terribly, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: And you were so concerned about some of the things that he was doing that you made an appointment with doctor — you told the people from the State that you make an appointment with Dr. Pumphrey to look at the child; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, that’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And you felt strung out at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I was stressed out at the time.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling Mary Gallagher you were strung out?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you tell Mary Gallagher it doesn’t pay to be straight?

JULIE HANES JONES: At that point in my life.

RICHARD BRODY: On June 21st, 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: On June 21st?

RICHARD BRODY: 1984.

JULIE HANES JONES: Just coming off drugs, that’s possibly a statement an addict would make, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you make that ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: You, at that time, were angry at ECDC, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: You wanted to pull your child out of ECDC because of what you felt were incorrect assumptions by people at ECDC?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not in June, no.

RICHARD BRODY: You were urged to keep your child in day care at the time, were you not, by the Department of Social Services, in June of 1984? They told you to keep him in day care?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Your Honor, I just re — I renew my discussion at the Side Bar because –

THE COURT: Is there still an objection?

MR. DiSANTI: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay, I’m going to sustain the objection.

RICHARD BRODY: Note my exception. Thank you. Now, in August of 1984 — this is two months after the new place, the new classroom — you tried to get back into Jones II for residential treatment again, didn’t you, the third time?

JULIE HANES JONES: In August?

RICHARD BRODY: August 1st, 1984, you went to the crisis intervention program for clinical assessment?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah.

RICHARD BRODY: And you wanted to get back in for a residential drug treatment program once again, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, at that time, you remember yelling and being belligerent and argumentative with the medical care providers there at the time?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you were abusing Valium, Nembutal, do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember at that time you were taking something for your seizures as well? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And that was Dilantin, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And you’ve been diagnosed as having some sort of seizures, which is an organic problem; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, it’s not organic.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you know how you got the seizures?

JULIE HANES JONES: My seizure at the age of 21 was drug induced.

RICHARD BRODY: Drug induced?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And your son also has the same sort of seizures?

JULIE HANES JONES: My son has organic brain something seizures.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, in August of 1984 do you remember being told that Peter was bitten by a child again?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember that shortly thereafter another child bit your son because he became so angry with the way Peter had treated him? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, on October 1st, 1984, you withdrew Peter from ECDC, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: He didn’t go back to ECDC after October 1st, 1984, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not to school, no, he did not.

RICHARD BRODY: Peter was seen by Dr. Sheeley as his pediatrician; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And you took pride in taking care of Peter’s medical needs, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right.

RICHARD BRODY: And when Dr. Sheeley would ask you or tell you to give him some medicine, you would religiously give him that medicine, wouldn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I would.

RICHARD BRODY: You would do just what the doctor said; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And you would do the same thing for George, wouldn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I would.

RICHARD BRODY: And one of the problems you had with David, the man who you lived with, was that when George was colicky, Dr. Sheeley prescribed some paregoric for him, didn’t she?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, she did.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, when you — strike that. Do you remember taking Peter to see Dr. Sheeley the day before he told you about the sexual abuse? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Is it that you don’t remember or it didn’t happen?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: It may have happened, but you don’t remember?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t remember.

RICHARD BRODY: And I think you told us that Peter told you about the — had the conversation with you in the bathroom. By the way, you’re sure it was you and not David he spoke to?

JULIE HANES JONES: I am positive.

RICHARD BRODY: Positive. David was not in the bathroom, was he?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he wasn’t.

RICHARD BRODY: You’re absolutely sure of that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Was David with you — he wasn’t in the bathroom at all until you called him in?

JULIE HANES JONES: The door was open to the bathroom. David was going about the apartment. I was bathing Peter.

RICHARD BRODY: Now you took — you had this conversation, and then it was David that called up his drug handler at the Pittsfield Police Station; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he didn’t call his drug handler, no.

RICHARD BRODY: Isn’t that who the initial call went to?

JULIE HANES JONES: It went to the Pittsfield Police Department.

RICHARD BRODY: To speak to a particular police officer?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not to my knowledge, no.

RICHARD BRODY: You didn’t speak to the Pittsfield Police Department, David did?

JULIE HANES JONES: We both did.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the name of the officer you spoke to?

JULIE HANES JONES: I thought it was Detective Beals. It could have been –

RICHARD BRODY: Do you know?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not for sure, no.

RICHARD BRODY: In any event, you were told — you went to the pediatrician’s office, Dr. Sheeley; is that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: She did an examination of your son?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And do you remember her telling you that based upon her examination physical examination, your son looked perfectly normal?

JULIE HANES JONES: I was told nothing.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t she tell you that she saw nothing wrong with his penis?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Didn’t she tell you there were no cuts, no bruises, no abrasions?

JULIE HANES JONES: Oh, yes, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And she had no idea why his penis would be bleeding; do you remember her saying that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And then she did some swabs, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: I wasn’t in the room.

RICHARD BRODY: She told you that there were going to be some later tests; isn’t that correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And that they would know the — they wouldn’t know the result of those tests for a period of time?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you know how long it would take for those tests to come back?

JULIE HANES JONES: Two days, 48 hours.

RICHARD BRODY: Forty-eight hours, that’s your best memory?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, do you remember being present in the emergency room when David Hanes told the nurse that he was giving the child a bath?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember David saying that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember David telling Dr. Sheeley that he was giving the child a bath?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Now, after you did that, that is, you went to Dr. Sheeley and you told him how concerned you were — told her how concerned you were, you went back home, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, we did.

RICHARD BRODY: You didn’t go to the police station at that point?

JULIE HANES JONES: The police were there.

RICHARD BRODY: They were at your home?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, they were at Dr. Sheeley’s office awaiting the test and the examination.

RICHARD BRODY: And which police officer was that?

JULIE HANES JONES: There was about four or five of them.

RICHARD BRODY: They were in Dr. Sheeley’s examination room?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right. And David and I were made to stay outside.

RICHARD BRODY: You’re positive of this?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Did they ask you to go to the police station for a statement at that time, at that time?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah, at some point they asked for a statement.

RICHARD BRODY: No, at that time, on October 4th, 1984, did the police ask you to come to the police station for a statement?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’m not sure if it was the 4th or the 5th.

RICHARD BRODY: You were upset, weren’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Very.

RICHARD BRODY: David was upset, wasn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Very.

RICHARD BRODY: You had just heard the worst thing that can happen to a parent; isn’t that fair to say?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s very fair to say.

RICHARD BRODY: You went home with your child, correct?

JULIE HANES JONES: Correct.

JULIE HANES JONES: And then you and David went to the movies and left him with a baby-sitter, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, are you sure you didn’t leave your child with a baby-sitter that night and go to the movies?

JULIE HANES JONES: I am positive.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember the police came — you came home from the movies and the baby-sitter said the police had been trying to get you all night? Do you remember that?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Is it because it didn’t happen or you just don’t remember?

JULIE HANES JONES: It didn’t happen.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay. Approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: Could you read this to yourself, ma’am, this paragraph?

JULIE HANES JONES: (The witness complied.)

RICHARD BRODY: Have you read it, ma’am?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yeah. I started reading the wrong paragraph.

RICHARD BRODY: You read it? Does that refresh your memory as to what the police did when they tried to contact — strike that. Does that refresh your memory as to the police attempting to get ahold of you on October 4th, 1985?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, but this is incorrect information/

RICHARD BRODY: It’s incorrect information?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, it is.

RICHARD BRODY: You were home with your child after he had reported to you that he had been sexually abused instead of being at the movies; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s right.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember when they tried to get you on October 4th, you said you’d be — to come in to make a statement, you told them that you’d be coming in the next day anyway because you had to go shopping?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t — I did not say that.

RICHARD BRODY: Okay, you told the police, did you not, that your son’s behavior at ECDC was fine until he was moved into a classroom with Bernie Baran, and he started hitting and swearing six months before October 1984? Didn’t you tell them that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I told the police that he was fine until he was placed with Bernie Baran.

RICHARD BRODY: No, no, listen to my question. He was fine until six months ago?

JULIE HANES JONES: When he was –

RICHARD BRODY: Which would be April of 1984. Didn’t you tell them that?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall the month.

RICHARD BRODY: That’s not true, is it?

JULIE HANES JONES: What’s not true?

RICHARD BRODY: He wasn’t fine until April of 1984, was he?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he wasn’t fine at all.

RICHARD BRODY: On October — strike that. On October 10th, 1984, you became aware — strike that. You made an appointment to see a therapist, Anna Pollock, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you canceled three different appointments, didn’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I did.

RICHARD BRODY: And you didn’t see her until almost a month later in November?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And on October 10th do you remember asking the Department of Social Services to take your kids and place them in foster care because you couldn’t manage them?

JULIE HANES JONES: That was never said by me.

RICHARD BRODY: That was never said by you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember calling up and saying that David had just beaten you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t recall.

RICHARD BRODY: Did it happen on October 10th, 1984? Did David beat you?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, he did not.

RICHARD BRODY: One moment, please, Your Honor.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember talking to a newspaper reporter on October 16th, 1984, From the Transcript?

JULIE HANES JONES: From the Transcript?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: Do you remember telling a newspaper article — strike that — a newspaper reporter on October 16th, 1984, quote, I have a lot of hate in me towards anyone in the school. I can’t possibly see how they would not have noticed something was happening, end quote? Do you remember saying that to the newspaper reporter?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t recall using the word “hate,” but I made that quote.

RICHARD BRODY: Did you tell them how the people at ECDC consistently tried to talk to you about your son for a year and a half before October 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: Did I tell the reporter that?

RICHARD BRODY: Yeah.

JULIE HANES JONES: No.

RICHARD BRODY: One moment, please, Your Honor.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: Did you tell them, quote, I don’t even know if I can cry anymore. I used to be happy-go-lucky. When this happened it changed my whole outlook on life, end quote? Didn’t you tell them that?

JULIE HANES JONES: Probably, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: So before this happened you were happy-go-lucky, were you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I’ve always been happy-go-lucky?

RICHARD BRODY: I see. By the way, let’s go back to the name of the officer you spoke to when you called the Pittsfield Police Department. Do you remember who Sergeant Henault is?

JULIE HANES JONES: Henault.

RICHARD BRODY: You know who he is, don’t you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, I do.

RICHARD BRODY: He is on the drug unit?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, he was.

RICHARD BRODY: And that’s who Mr. Hanes called about this, didn’t he?

JULIE HANES JONES: Not to my recollection, no.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t know?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, I don’t.

RICHARD BRODY: One moment, please.

(Pause)

RICHARD BRODY: In any event, ma’am, your children were removed from your home on or about October 14, 1984?

JULIE HANES JONES: October 24th.

RICHARD BRODY: October 24th, I’m sorry. And that was done by the Department of Social Services?

JULIE HANES JONES: That’s correct.

RICHARD BRODY: And I think you already testified about the first foster family they were placed with, the Johnsons was it?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And then they were placed with the Murphys [an alias], weren’t they?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, they were.

RICHARD BRODY: And Mrs. Murphy was actually a police officer, wasn’t she?

JULIE HANES JONES: Ex-narcotics police officer, yes.

RICHARD BRODY: And she’s also in human services, isn’t she?

JULIE HANES JONES: I would assume they tie together.

RICHARD BRODY: And you don’t like her, do you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t like what transpired.

RICHARD BRODY: You don’t like her, do you?

JULIE HANES JONES: I don’t know her personally to dislike her.

RICHARD BRODY: I see. Well, didn’t you tell a number of your therapists, different ones, how much you disliked her?

JULIE HANES JONES: I remember telling them how much I disliked her, yes, at that time.

RICHARD BRODY: In fact, Mrs. Murphy was seriously considering trying to get legal custody of your children, wasn’t she?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, she was.

RICHARD BRODY: She wanted to adopt your children, didn’t she?

JULIE HANES JONES: Yes, she did.

RICHARD BRODY: And at the time that the children were taken out of your home, you went to get a TRO against David Hanes, a temporary — a restraining order against David Hanes because he had beaten you again; isn’t that right?

JULIE HANES JONES: No, the restraining order was already in effect. David had already been gone from the place.

RICHARD BRODY: He violated the restraining order?

JULIE HANES JONES: By calling me.

RICHARD BRODY: And you told us this morning the reason he left is because you found out he was sleeping with your best friend, and you left his bags out on the porch, right?

JULIE HANES JONES: I did.

RICHARD BRODY: That’s not true, is it?

JULIE HANES JONES: It’s very true. In September when I found out he was sleeping with my friend, I packed his belongings and I put them out on the front porch. When David came back, i asked him not to come back. He kept coming back on a daily basis. I finally was forced to file a restraining order against him.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am –

JULIE HANES JONES: On October 24th he violated that restraining order by calling the house the day that they were removing my two children.

RICHARD BRODY: Ma’am, do you remember being asked on any number of occasions why David Hanes left the home, and you never said that before, did you?

JULIE HANES JONES: Never said that –

RICHARD BRODY: Never told that story before, did you?

JULIE HANES JONES: That he — yes, I did.

THE COURT: Mr. Brody, it’s just about 4:00 o’clock. Is this an appropriate time to break?

RICHARD BRODY: Yes, Your Honor, I think this would be a good time.

THE COURT: Members of the jury, if you would again just put your notebooks and pens down on your seats, we will recess at this point for the day. I’m going to ask that the jurors please return for 9:00 o’clock tomorrow morning, and we will resume at that time.

Again, I remind you if there’s any media coverage of this, don’t read it or listen to it, and don’t talk to anybody, including among yourselves, about the case. Thank you. Have a good evening.

(The case adjourned for the day.)

[Note: Julie Hanes' testimony ended the trial. Her lawyers quickly offered to settle after her credibility was destroyed.]